An intellectual Discourse Between a Nietzsche-ish Psych Major and a Kantian-ish Philo Major
But she didn't think he'd come up with anything better than that. He forgot about it and she didn't remind him. Eventually, years later, he becomes an agnostic.
Good read. :) Sana pala na-bring up mo rin sa discussion niyo na meron din namang rational arguments for the existence of God (e.g., Anselm's ontological argument, Aquinas' 5 ways for God's existence). I think, kasi, more than the empirical evidence for God (which would be HARD to seek talaga), people are also looking for rational arguments. (Or hindi na ba "rational" ang ontological argument at ang 5 ways sa logical standards ng panahon ngayon?) :)
Anyway, hindi ako agree sa sinabi niya na belief in God is a matter of choice. One does not say, "Ah sige, maniniwala na ako sa Diyos" (or the other way around). Belief is a matter of being compelled by evidence/convincing arguments. You don't CHOOSE to believe or disbelieve in something.
At syempre we cannot point to a direct, empirical evidence for God - just as how we cannot point to a direct, empirical evidence for love (or tulad ng sinabi mo, freewill), or for other abstract/metaphysical concepts such as numbers or geometrical figures. But do we say, "There is no such thing as a triangle" or "There are no such things as numbers"? Hindi naman diba? But in life, we see manifestations of a triangle (e.g., triangular things), but we cannot directly point to triangle, the geometrical figure itself. Similarly, ganun din kay God - we cannot directly point to an empirical God, but we can point to empirical manifestations of God in this world, via God's creations (see Aquinas' 5 ways).
Also, there is no good reason for anyone to consider belief in a flying spaghetti monster (is there?). :)) Pero yung belief or disbelief in God, we have very good reasons to consider either of these (e.g., possibility of going to hell if there is a God, or not having to worry about judgment if there is no God). And while I believe na we cannot voluntarily choose to believe (or disbelieve) in something, we CAN however search for evidence/rational arguments for or against it.
Ayan na-mimiss ko tuloy yung lessons sa Epistemology on volition of belief. :))
At diba argumentum ad ignorantiam din naman ang atheism (or ang assurance that "there's no heaven or hell"), since there are no compelling evidences (scientifically speaking) either for or against God? The most "rational" stand would be agnosticism. Good job sa pagconvert sa kanya from atheist to agnostic, at least. :P Hahaha.
Pero ang isa sa mga pinaka-nakakainsulto na ginagawa ng ibang atheists and agnostics (and I admit may pagka-ganito din ako dati nung agnostic pa ako) is when they look down on theists. Common kasi yung notion na kapag theist ka, bobo ka. Na para bang hindi mo man lang chinallenge yung beliefs mo mula nung bata ka pa. Na para bang "irrational faith" lang ang basis mo sa paniniwala sa Diyos. Na para bang uneducated yung belief mo in God. And this coming from a former agnostic, nakakainsulto talaga ang ganyang opinion on theists. :))
Hi Jerome! Longest comment award! :)) Napangiti ako sa haba ng comment mo, wohoo discussion! Exciting :D
I think hindi ko brinring up yung rational arguments kasi hindi rin ako convinved doon dati, yung 5 proofs ni Aquinas in particular. I don't know... parang I can always imagine na hindi necessarily kung anong nasa world ay manifestation na may creator. Mas nag-aagree ako kay Hume sa Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion noon. Hindi ko lang alam ngayon. Hindi ko pa pinag-isipan uli.
Pero may reference ako (dun sa last reply ko sa kanya) sa ontological argument ni Anselm na apophatic reading ni sir Fronda. Si sir Fronda ata ang nasa ko isip ko diyan haha. About choosing to believe in God, yes, I also believe we can't. Pero di ba nakakatawa, hindi pare-pareho ang responses ng mga tao sa evidences. The same arguments/evidences may convince some people but not all. Tawag ata ni sir sa mga macoconvince ng certain evidence, "physionomically(?) inclined." Haay namiss ko ang philo of religion :))
Yeah, yung paghahanap niya ng empirical evidence seems to imply that he has mistaken God as an empirical concept/object. And yes, argumentum ad ignorantiam iyon, inexplain ko sa kanya dun sa last reply but without the name :D
I'm not so sure na ako ang responsible sa pagkakaconvert niya sa agnosticism. (Pero parang ganun nga yung implication nung sentence ko noh? Inedit ko na hehe.) It took years eh, di na rin kami nag-usap uli pagkatapos niyan. I'm sure he read more about it. Pero bongga kung may nacontribute ako hihi.
Kami (ako at yung guy) galing naman sa background na yung theists ang may insulting attitude sa atheists. :)) Parang pag atheist ka wala kang moralidad at weird ka haha. Pero di naman ako nagkaroon ng ganung attitude. I think may ganung fault both sides. Sa mga nakakahalubilo kong Christians ngayon sa church ang tawag ata sa mga groups na hindi naniniwalang God si Christ, if I heard them right, ay cults eh. Christian ako but I find that insulting hahaha, and I wonder kung tama bang maramdaman ko yun o tama bang sa sobrang convinced nila na totoo ang Christianity, justified sila sa ganun. And the same goes for other religious beliefs. Kaya ka rin ganun siguro dati hahaha.
Ang sarap magcoment nang mahaba noh? :)) Hahahaha pero Geno, may mali tayo! Wala ngapalang salitang "evidences". Hahaha. Sorry, my bad. :P
Actually, hindi ko na masyadong matandaan yung kabuuan ng Dialogues ni Hume. Di ko na rin matandaan kung natapos ko nga ba siyang basahin. Hahaha. (Sana hindi ito mabasa ni Sir Fronda, inuno pa naman niya ako.) :)) But the reason I liked Aquinas at kung bakit sa tingin ko kailangan siyang mabasa ng mga atheists/agnostics eh kasi feeling ko very organized siya magsulat at medyo reader-friendly rin. :) At habang nababasa mo yung Summa Theologica, mapapa-wow ka talaga kasi parang ang tali-talino niya, tsaka ang galing niya kasi nagawa niyang coherent yung ganun karaming Questions/Books on the topic of God. So para sa akin, si Aquinas ay isa sa mga examples ng theists na magdidisprove ng notion na intelectually inferior ang mga taong naniniwala sa Diyos. :)
And yes, kung intellect (or lack thereof) nga ang common na ginagamit na insult sa mga theists, yung morality naman sa mga atheists. But I still think mas offensive na isipin ng ibang tao na bobo ka kesa isipin nilang masama ka. :)) Lalo na kung iisipin nilang uneducated/unfounded/unchallenged yung belief mo in God. Medyo na-ooffend din ako pag may nagsasabi na kaya lang daw naniniwala yung ibang tao sa Diyos para lang magkaron ng "meaning" yung life nila or because it only makes them feel better (again, as if belief is a matter of choice).
At sa panahon ngayon, bilang mainstream/"cool" na ang atheism, marami nang mas aware na hindi naman imoral ang pagiging atheist (i.e., God is not necessary for one to have moral standards). Sa kabilang banda, konti lang ang mga aware na hindi naman talaga in conflict ang rationality at theism. Para sakin, biggest insult kapag intellect mo na ang inaatake ng iba eh.
Anywayyy, ang layo na ng narating ng comment ko. Hahahaha. Siguro sensitive lang talaga ako when atheists look down on theists (or kahit hindi man nila sinasadya, implying that belief in God is "superstitious", "pure faith", etc. eh nakakainsulto para sakin). :))
Wait, do you not believe that Jesus is God? (Or did you mean na-iinsult ka for other people na tinatawag nilang "cult"?) :P
Good read. :) Sana pala na-bring up mo rin sa discussion niyo na meron din namang rational arguments for the existence of God (e.g., Anselm's ontological argument, Aquinas' 5 ways for God's existence). I think, kasi, more than the empirical evidence for God (which would be HARD to seek talaga), people are also looking for rational arguments. (Or hindi na ba "rational" ang ontological argument at ang 5 ways sa logical standards ng panahon ngayon?) :)
ReplyDeleteAnyway, hindi ako agree sa sinabi niya na belief in God is a matter of choice. One does not say, "Ah sige, maniniwala na ako sa Diyos" (or the other way around). Belief is a matter of being compelled by evidence/convincing arguments. You don't CHOOSE to believe or disbelieve in something.
At syempre we cannot point to a direct, empirical evidence for God - just as how we cannot point to a direct, empirical evidence for love (or tulad ng sinabi mo, freewill), or for other abstract/metaphysical concepts such as numbers or geometrical figures. But do we say, "There is no such thing as a triangle" or "There are no such things as numbers"? Hindi naman diba? But in life, we see manifestations of a triangle (e.g., triangular things), but we cannot directly point to triangle, the geometrical figure itself. Similarly, ganun din kay God - we cannot directly point to an empirical God, but we can point to empirical manifestations of God in this world, via God's creations (see Aquinas' 5 ways).
Also, there is no good reason for anyone to consider belief in a flying spaghetti monster (is there?). :)) Pero yung belief or disbelief in God, we have very good reasons to consider either of these (e.g., possibility of going to hell if there is a God, or not having to worry about judgment if there is no God). And while I believe na we cannot voluntarily choose to believe (or disbelieve) in something, we CAN however search for evidence/rational arguments for or against it.
Ayan na-mimiss ko tuloy yung lessons sa Epistemology on volition of belief. :))
At diba argumentum ad ignorantiam din naman ang atheism (or ang assurance that "there's no heaven or hell"), since there are no compelling evidences (scientifically speaking) either for or against God? The most "rational" stand would be agnosticism. Good job sa pagconvert sa kanya from atheist to agnostic, at least. :P Hahaha.
Pero ang isa sa mga pinaka-nakakainsulto na ginagawa ng ibang atheists and agnostics (and I admit may pagka-ganito din ako dati nung agnostic pa ako) is when they look down on theists. Common kasi yung notion na kapag theist ka, bobo ka. Na para bang hindi mo man lang chinallenge yung beliefs mo mula nung bata ka pa. Na para bang "irrational faith" lang ang basis mo sa paniniwala sa Diyos. Na para bang uneducated yung belief mo in God. And this coming from a former agnostic, nakakainsulto talaga ang ganyang opinion on theists. :))
Hi Jerome! Longest comment award! :)) Napangiti ako sa haba ng comment mo, wohoo discussion! Exciting :D
DeleteI think hindi ko brinring up yung rational arguments kasi hindi rin ako convinved doon dati, yung 5 proofs ni Aquinas in particular. I don't know... parang I can always imagine na hindi necessarily kung anong nasa world ay manifestation na may creator. Mas nag-aagree ako kay Hume sa Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion noon. Hindi ko lang alam ngayon. Hindi ko pa pinag-isipan uli.
Pero may reference ako (dun sa last reply ko sa kanya) sa ontological argument ni Anselm na apophatic reading ni sir Fronda. Si sir Fronda ata ang nasa ko isip ko diyan haha. About choosing to believe in God, yes, I also believe we can't. Pero di ba nakakatawa, hindi pare-pareho ang responses ng mga tao sa evidences. The same arguments/evidences may convince some people but not all. Tawag ata ni sir sa mga macoconvince ng certain evidence, "physionomically(?) inclined." Haay namiss ko ang philo of religion :))
Yeah, yung paghahanap niya ng empirical evidence seems to imply that he has mistaken God as an empirical concept/object. And yes, argumentum ad ignorantiam iyon, inexplain ko sa kanya dun sa last reply but without the name :D
I'm not so sure na ako ang responsible sa pagkakaconvert niya sa agnosticism. (Pero parang ganun nga yung implication nung sentence ko noh? Inedit ko na hehe.) It took years eh, di na rin kami nag-usap uli pagkatapos niyan. I'm sure he read more about it. Pero bongga kung may nacontribute ako hihi.
Kami (ako at yung guy) galing naman sa background na yung theists ang may insulting attitude sa atheists. :)) Parang pag atheist ka wala kang moralidad at weird ka haha. Pero di naman ako nagkaroon ng ganung attitude. I think may ganung fault both sides. Sa mga nakakahalubilo kong Christians ngayon sa church ang tawag ata sa mga groups na hindi naniniwalang God si Christ, if I heard them right, ay cults eh. Christian ako but I find that insulting hahaha, and I wonder kung tama bang maramdaman ko yun o tama bang sa sobrang convinced nila na totoo ang Christianity, justified sila sa ganun. And the same goes for other religious beliefs. Kaya ka rin ganun siguro dati hahaha.
Ang sarap magcoment nang mahaba noh? :)) Hahahaha pero Geno, may mali tayo! Wala ngapalang salitang "evidences". Hahaha. Sorry, my bad. :P
ReplyDeleteActually, hindi ko na masyadong matandaan yung kabuuan ng Dialogues ni Hume. Di ko na rin matandaan kung natapos ko nga ba siyang basahin. Hahaha. (Sana hindi ito mabasa ni Sir Fronda, inuno pa naman niya ako.) :)) But the reason I liked Aquinas at kung bakit sa tingin ko kailangan siyang mabasa ng mga atheists/agnostics eh kasi feeling ko very organized siya magsulat at medyo reader-friendly rin. :) At habang nababasa mo yung Summa Theologica, mapapa-wow ka talaga kasi parang ang tali-talino niya, tsaka ang galing niya kasi nagawa niyang coherent yung ganun karaming Questions/Books on the topic of God. So para sa akin, si Aquinas ay isa sa mga examples ng theists na magdidisprove ng notion na intelectually inferior ang mga taong naniniwala sa Diyos. :)
And yes, kung intellect (or lack thereof) nga ang common na ginagamit na insult sa mga theists, yung morality naman sa mga atheists. But I still think mas offensive na isipin ng ibang tao na bobo ka kesa isipin nilang masama ka. :)) Lalo na kung iisipin nilang uneducated/unfounded/unchallenged yung belief mo in God. Medyo na-ooffend din ako pag may nagsasabi na kaya lang daw naniniwala yung ibang tao sa Diyos para lang magkaron ng "meaning" yung life nila or because it only makes them feel better (again, as if belief is a matter of choice).
At sa panahon ngayon, bilang mainstream/"cool" na ang atheism, marami nang mas aware na hindi naman imoral ang pagiging atheist (i.e., God is not necessary for one to have moral standards). Sa kabilang banda, konti lang ang mga aware na hindi naman talaga in conflict ang rationality at theism. Para sakin, biggest insult kapag intellect mo na ang inaatake ng iba eh.
Anywayyy, ang layo na ng narating ng comment ko. Hahahaha. Siguro sensitive lang talaga ako when atheists look down on theists (or kahit hindi man nila sinasadya, implying that belief in God is "superstitious", "pure faith", etc. eh nakakainsulto para sakin). :))
Wait, do you not believe that Jesus is God? (Or did you mean na-iinsult ka for other people na tinatawag nilang "cult"?) :P
Ay, ang noob ko. Dapat pala pinindot ko yung Reply. Hahahaha.
DeleteHahaha okay lang yan :p
DeleteI believe Jesus is God! XD Naiinsult lang ako for the people na tinatawag nilang cult hahaha.